During a March 4, 2026, hearing before the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee examining alleged fraud in Minnesota’s social service programs, Rep. Michael Cloud (R-TX) engaged in a pointed exchange with Rev. Mariah Tollgaard, senior pastor of Hamline Church United Methodist in St. Paul, Minnesota.

The discussion centered on the biblical understanding of charity in relation to government-funded programs and taxation, as Tollgaard had referenced Matthew 25 in her testimony.

Cloud questioned the application of the passage to justify expansive government spending.

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Cloud began by asking about the “you” in Matthew 25:40: “You to the extent that you did one of the one of those brothers mine, even the least of them You did this to me, I would ask you, who’s the you in that passage?”

Tollgaard responded: “Thank you for your question. You meaning all of us, the followers of Christ.”

Cloud replied: “Followers of Christ. Right in Matthew 24 three, it says after Jesus was sitting on the mountain of olives, and the disciples came to him privately, and then they asked him, that began this whole chapter. Now, what Christ didn’t say was to lobby your government. He said, If you have you give that’s the general biblical principle here. You know, Second Corinthians, chapter nine, gives us probably the best scriptural understanding of what charity is. It says each of you should give what you’ve decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. Would you say that taxes are under compulsion?”

Tollgaard answered: “Taxes are not my area of expertise…”

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Cloud pressed: “But are they given under compulsion? Do you pay your taxes?”

Tollgaard said: “As a US citizen, I pay my taxes. We all do.”

Cloud continued: “Yes. Because what happens if you don’t?”

Tollgaard replied: “We don’t have the services that we need to support our…”

Cloud interjected: “What happens to you personally, if you don’t pay your taxes?”

Tollgaard stated: “You get in trouble.”

Cloud concluded: “You get in trouble. I would say that’s under compulsion. So if we’re talking about what charity is, I’m always amazed in DC how much of we get to define our personal worth as a politician or statesman, or whatever you want to call us by, how much of other people’s money we give away. And so there’s certainly a place for a social safety net, potentially, but the idea that that Matthew 25 is kind of used as a blanket statement, as matter of fact, the parable that he gives right before that scripture that you go into is the parable of the talents, where you see someone, a business owner, go away, and he leaves three employees in charge and gives them each a bit of investment. And two of them turn their investment into a profit, and one that turns it not into a problem. He does nothing with it, just sits on it. What does he call him? You’re a pastor, right?”

Tollgaard confirmed: “Yes, I am sir. I don’t have uhhh…”

Cloud continued: “He calls him a wicked and a lazy servant. And so, you know, scripturally speaking, God expects us to do something with what he’s given us. Now, Romans 13 talks about the purpose of government. You know, Scripture is replete with there’s different institutions that each have a different thing, the primary job of raising our kids and taking care of our families and the institution of the family, the government has a different one. It says, For the one in the authority is God’s servant for your good, but if you do wrong, be afraid. For the rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants to bring ancient of wrath on the wrongdoer. Would you say that someone who commits fraud is doing wrong?”

Tollgaard agreed: “We all are against fraud.”

Cloud asked: “Right is fraud, theft? Would you agree that that’s theft?”

Tollgaard said: “Yes.”

Cloud referenced: “As the eighth commandment says, Thou shalt not steal. Would you recommend that someone in your church go into debt to give an offering in your church?”

Tollgaard replied: “No.”

Cloud concluded: “Okay, so we have a massive program of fraud that’s being paid for by taxpayers, and it’s not really our us paying it’s really our kids and our grandkids that are paying it. And yet, we continue to see this massive expansion all under the taken out of context of what charity is being defined as.”

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